Brent P
Who's the one saying engineering can fix anything and everything? You're the one saying you can always imrpove lights no matter how many cars are on the road, or how well tuned they already are.
And that doesn't counter anything I wrote, other than you apparently believe everyone's a good driver with good intentions. Given the number of road rage incidents annually, that's obviously not true.
Show me some real data that shows people don't intentionally run lights - you can't prove it either way without reading minds. Though, you can stand near an intersection and listen to multiple cars rev their engine to get their front bumper across the crosswalk before the light changes red.
Wow, you're not addressing anything either. This is getting pointless, eh?
I admit that trying to convince people that removing a ton of business they shop at, and to spend the money required to acquire all that prime real-estate around them, is not the best idea.
San Diego already tried the cheap stuff, light timing, all reds, increasing yellows, mounting more lights, cutting trees nearby, etc. This is something else, in addition to those steps, that can be done to make the intersection safer.
Ummm, the lights are timed correctly, just not for conditions that have more cars on the road than it can fit. When you have 2 overcapacbreasty roads in both directions meet there's significant limits on how much light timing can do, since someone needs to wait.
There's ALWAYS a potential fine - this just makes it much more likely they get caught. You keep babbling about proper engineering, but you seem to be too thick to comprehend there's limits on how much engineering can improve an intersection without taking mbuttive amounts of land for grade separation.
No poo, that's a 3 year old document about the old cameras, the old system they were using, run by a different provider, under a previous police chief. I was very opposed to the old system, as it was significantly flawed. The newer systems are a vast improvement which is why they were installed.
Old news. Those articles again are about cameras that were removed several years ago, and have since been replaced with a new system. And I already discussed how they got caught, and the improper tickets were ruled invalid.
Blah blah blah... Cars can be abused too, like when people run red lights with them. Should we ban cars too?
Inferior for saftey to what? They should never be used because there's other options also? Or could they maybe be used to suppliment the engineering solutions also.
They "prey on the people" by what means? Catching people doing things wrong? Again, do you have a problem with a security camera in a bank, since that preys on bank robbers?
And most of those studies seem to be somewhat flawed, and ignore increases of traffic that will increase the number of collisions, espescially when doing the studies in high-growth areas.
"A study of accidents at intersection with red-light cameras in seven U.S. cities was recently done for the Insurance Insbreastute for Highway Safety.
It showed a 25 percent drop in broadside collisions - or "angle crashes" - at those intersections but a 15 percent rise in rear-end collisions. "
"There were nine accidents due to vehicles running red lights at those four intersections in the year before the cameras were installed.
In comparing rear-end accidents, there were 12 in the year before the cameras were installed vs. six with the cameras. Some critics of the program predicted an increase in rear-end accidents from drivers who stop suddenly to avoid a ticket."
That seems to counter what you're saying about increased accidents.
I don't think everyone has been refunded cause a lot of people are too stupid-lazy to bother.
Let me guess, you think banks shouldn't be allowed to have security cameras, right? That's a much better comparison, since that's a public space.
I don't trust the system and government entirely, but I know there's a judicial system where if I'm falsley accused of running a red light I can fight it.
If the camera isn't set up right you can fight the ticket. A cop can make the same mistakes easily enough. Should we just let people run red lights, and remove all fines for it?
I see no problem with using them as a tool to help reduce accidents. As much as you want to keep spewing that you can always improve engineering, there are limits on what can be done. I don't see a problem with using cameras where they're appropriate.
Dave
